RE: i opener for few (or many) ?!

[Venkateswara Rao Kesaraju <kevenkat@yahoo.com>]

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With due respect Sir , i beg to differ.

As you have stated caste plays a very big (retarding)
role in India. And so is religion(retarding role? -
Iam not sure).

We cannot ignore caste and religion and concentrate
only on development. It is not right to think of
development(economic) as a seperate entity, and
blackout any discussion on religion/caste.

I share your concern that any discussion on these
issues may rise tempers and change the direction of
this forum. But that is the point. As we all can see
religion/caste can still force the most progressive
minded people in this forum to issue strong statements
and occassionally lose tempers.
 So we cannot and should not hide from it. We have to
discuss with an open mind and understand role of
religion/caste in the
process of development.

Also I am happy that we are discussing these issues in
the most civilized manner (despite the genuine
misgings of Dr.Roy and others) - compared to other
news/discussion groups. (Did any body in this group
ever tried to read messages in soc.culture.indian ?)

My sincere thanks for the moderator and members for
keeping things cool (sort of).

Venkat

A Detour from the main discussion and a
Question to all members: After nearly 50 years of end
of colonialism-  all colonizers are doing good.
(rich/prosperous and scintifically advanced)
and almost all countries who won independence fighting
colonialism are in a very bad shape.
What went wrong ? Is Colonialism, after all,a good
thing?


--- prabhu.guptara@ubs.com wrote:
>
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> Please help make the Manifesto better, or accept it,
> and propagate it!
>
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> You may be right about the Portuguese (I don't know,
> I have not studied
> anything on this, but this is what is usually said
> by us Indians).
>
> However, you are quite wrong about British
> missionaries.  For a detailed
> study,
> see Vishal Mangalwadi, INDIA: THE GRAND EXPERIMENT,
> which I have
> repeatedly
> mentioned on this discussion list.
>
> As far as I know, not one person on this list has
> actually read this
> book yet.
>
> So we continue to get unintelligent remarks on the
> role of British
> missionaries
> in India.
>
> HOwever, the question about missionaries and Muslims
> is entirely
> irrelevant to
> the India policy pages and should be closed, as it
> is evident that it
> has
> nothing to do with the real problems facing India.
>
> In spite of the worst depradations of the British -
> which were bad
> enough -
> India was still one of the foremost countries in the
> world at the time
> of
> Independence.  After 50 years of a desi government,
> our country has slid
> to
> being the 147th country in the world.
>
> Let us stop blaming the Muslims and the British.
> Let us take an
> unbiased look
> at how much has been stolen from India and by whom
> since Independence.
> Then
> let us try to create policies which will benefit
> India.  Conversion to
> Hinduism
> or away from it has nothing to do with it, though as
> I have said
> earlier, caste
> is still the primary retarder of progress (and also
> makes it easier for
> the
> ruling class to continue stealing).
>
> prabhu guptara
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: param
> Sent: Mittwoch, 25. Oktober 2000 17:53
> To: debate
> Cc: param
> Subject: FW: i opener for few (or many) ?!
>
>
>
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> Please help make the Manifesto better, or accept it,
> and propagate it!
>
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> I felt it is worthwile to shre with our members. As
> it is always good to
> get
> an Objective analysis.
>
> http://www.rediff.com/news/2000/oct/25franc.htm
>
> Will Hinduism survive the present Christian
> offensive?
> When Prime Minister Vajpayee was in the US in
> September, the National
> Association of Asian Christians in the US (whom
> nobody had heard about
> before), paid $ 50,000 to the New York Times to
> publish 'an Open Letter
> to
> the Hon'ble Atal Bihari Vajpayee, prime minister of
> India.'
> While 'warmly welcoming the PM,' the NAAIC expressed
> deep concern about
> the
> 'persecution' of Christians in India by 'extremist'
> (meaning Hindu)
> groups,
> mentioning as examples 'the priest, missionaries and
> church workers who
> have
> been murdered,' the nuns 'raped,' and the potential
> enacting of
> conversion
> laws, which would make 'genuine' conversions
> illegal. The letter
> concluded
> by saying 'that Christians in India today live in
> fear.'
> The whole affair was an embarrassment (as it was
> intended to be) to Mr
> Vajpayee and the Indian delegation, which had come
> to prod American
> businessmen to invest in India, a peaceful,
> pro-Western and democratic
> country.
> I am born a Christian and I have had a strong
> Catholic education. I do
> believe that Christ was an incarnation of Pure Love
> and that His
> Presence
> still radiates in the world. I also believe there
> are human beings who
> sincerely try to incarnate the ideals of Jesus and
> that you can find
> today
> in India a few missionaries (such as Father Ceyrac,
> a French Jesuit, who
>
> works mostly with lepers in Tamil Nadu), who are
> incarnations of that
> Love,
> tending tirelessly to people, without trying to
> convert them.
> But I have also lived for more than 30 years in
> India, I am married to
> an
> Indian, I have traveled the length and breath of
> this country and I have
>
> evolved a love and an understanding of India, which
> few other foreign
> correspondents have, because they are never posted
> long enough to start
> getting a real feeling of this vast and often
> baffling country (nobody
> can
> claim to fully understand India). And this is what I
> have to say about
> the
> 'persecution' of Christians in India.
> Firstly, it is necessary to bring about a little bit
> of a historical
> flashback, which very few foreign correspondents
> (and unfortunately also
>
> Indian journalists) care to do, which would make for
> a more balanced
> view of
> the problem.
> If ever there was persecution, it was of the Hindus
> at the hands of
> Christians, who were actually welcomed in this
> country, as they have
> been
> welcomed in no other place on this planet. Indeed,
> the first Christian
> community of the world, that of the Syrian
> Christians, was established
> in
> Kerala in the first century; they were able to live
> in peace and
> practice
> their religion freely, even imbibing some of the
> local Hindu customs,
> until
> the Jesuits came in the 16th century and told them
> it was 'heathen' to
> have
> anything to do with the Hindus, thereby breaking the
> Syrian Church in
> two.
> When Vasco de Gama landed in Kerala in 1498, he was
> generously received
> by
> the Zamorin, the Hindu king of Calicut, who granted
> him the right to
> establish warehouses for commerce. But once again,
> Hindu tolerance was
> exploited and the Portuguese wanted more and more.
> In 1510, Alfonso de
> Albuquerque seized Goa, where he started a reign of
> terror, burning
> 'heretics,' crucifying Brahmins, using false
> theories to forcibly
> convert
> the lower castes, razing temples to build churches
> upon them and
> encouraging
> his soldiers to take Indian mistresses.
> Indeed, the Portuguese perpetrated here some of the
> worst atrocities
> ever
> committed in Asia by Christianity upon another
> religion. Ultimately, the
>
> Portuguese had to be kicked out of India, when all
> other colonisers had
> already left.
> British missionaries in India were always supporters
> of colonialism;
> they
> encouraged it and their whole structure was based on
> 'the good Western
> civilised world being brought to the Pagans.'
> Because, in the words of
> Claudius Bucchanan, a chaplain attached to the East
> India Company,
> 'Neither
> truth, nor honesty, honour, gratitude, nor charity,
> is to be found in
> the
> breast of a Hindoo!' What a comment about a nation
> that gave the world
> the
> Vedas at a time when Europeans were still grappling
> in their caves!
> And it is in this way that the British allowed
> entire chunks of
> territories
> in the East, where lived tribals, whose poverty and
> simplicity, made
> them
> easy prey to be converted to Christianity. By doing
> so, the Christian
> missionaries cut a people from their roots and
> tradition, made them look
>
> westwards towards a culture and a way of life which
> was not theirs.
> And the result is there today for everyone to see:
> it is in these
> eastern
> states, some of which are 90 per cent Christian,
> that one finds the
> biggest
> drug problems (and crime) in India. It should also
> be said that many of
> the
> eastern separatist movements have been covertly
> encouraged by Christian
> missionaries on the ground that 'tribals were there
> before the "Aryan
> Hindus" invaded India and imposed Hinduism upon on
> them.'
> The trouble is that the latest archaeological and
> linguistic discoveries
>
> point out to the fact that there NEVER was an Aryan
> invasion of India --
> it
> just was an invention of the British and the
> missionaries to serve their
>
> purpose.
> Secondly, Christianity has always striven on the
> myth of persecution,
> which
> in turn bred "martyrs" and saints, indispensable to
> the propagation of
> Christianity. But it is little known, for instance,
> that the first
> "saints"
> of Christianity, "martyred" in Rome, a highly
> refined civilisation,
> which
> had evolved a remarkable system of gods and
> goddesses, some of whom were
>
> derived from Hindu mythology via the Greeks, were
> actually killed (a
> normal
> practice in those days), while bullying peaceful
> Romans to embrace the
> "true" religion, in the same way that later
> Christian missionaries will
> browbeat "heathen" Hindus, adoring many gods, into
> believing that Jesus
> was
> the only "true" god.
> Now to come to the recent cases of persecution of
> Christians in India at
> the
> hands of Hindu groups. I have personally
> investigated quite a few,
> amongst
> them the rape of the four nuns in Jhabua, MP, nearly
> two years ago. This
>
> rape is still quoted as an example of the
> 'atrocities' committed by
> Hindus
> on Christians.
> Yet, when I interviewed the four innocent nuns, they
> themselves
> admitted,
> along with George Anatil, the bishop of Indore, that
> it had nothing to
> do
> with religion: it was the doing of a gang of Bhil
> tribals, known to
> perpetrate this kind of hateful acts on their own
> women. Today, the
> Indian
> press, the Christian hierarchy and the politicians,
> continue to include
> the
> Jhabua rape in the list of atrocities against the
> Christians.
> Or take the burning of churches in Andhra Pradesh a
> few months ago,
> which
> was supposed to have been committed by the "fanatic"
> RSS. It was proved
> later that it was actually the handiwork
> <http://www.rediff.com/news/2000/aug/16anju.htm>  of
> Indian Muslims, at
> the
> behest of the ISI to foment hatred between
> Christians and Hindus. Yet
> the
> Indian press which went berserk at the time of the
> burnings, mostly kept
>
> quiet when the true nature of the perpetrators was
> revealed.
> Finally, even if Dara Singh does belong to the
> Bajrang Dal, it is
> doubtful
> if the hundred other accused do. What is more
> probable, is that like in
> many
> other 'backward' places, it is a case of converted
> tribals versus
> non-converted tribals, of pent-up jealousies, of old
> village feuds and
> land
> disputes. It is also an outcome of what -- it should
> be said -- are the
> aggressive methods of the Pentecost and Seventh
> Adventists missionaries,
>
> known for their muscular ways of conversion.
> Thirdly, conversions in India by Christian
> missionaries of low caste
> Hindus
> and tribals are sometimes nothing short of
> fraudulent and shameful.
> American
> missionaries are investing huge amounts of money in
> India, which come
> from
> donation drives in the United States where gullible
> Americans think the
> dollars they are giving go towards uplifting "poor
> and uneducated
> Indians."
> It is common in Kerala, for instance, particularly
> in the poor coastal
> districts, to have "miracle boxes" put in local
> churches: the gullible
> villager writes out a paper mentioning his wish: a
> fishing boat, a loan
> for
> a pucca house, fees for the son's schooling... And
> lo, a few weeks
> later,
> the miracle happens! And of course the whole family
> converts, making
> others
> in the village follow suit.
> American missionaries (and their government) would
> like us to believe
> that
> democracy includes the freedom to convert by any
> means. But France for
> example, a traditionally Christian country, has a
> minister who is in
> charge
> of hunting down "sects." And by sects, it is meant
> anything that does
> not
> fall within the recognised family of Christianity --
> even the Church of
> Scientology, favoured by some Hollywood stars such
> as Tom Cruise or John
>
> Travolta, is ruthlessly hounded. And look at what
> the Americans did to
> the
> Osho movement in Arizona, or how innocent children
> and women were burnt
> down
> by the FBI (with the assistance of the US army) at
> Waco, Texas, because
> they
> belonged to a dangerous sect...
> Did you know that Christianity is dying in the West?
> Not only is church
> attendance falling dramatically because spirituality
> has deserted it,
> but
> less and less youth find the vocation to become
> priests or nuns. And as
> a
> result, say in the rural parts of France, you will
> find only one priest
> for
> six or seven villages, whereas till the late
> seventies, the smallest
> hamlet
> had its own parish priest.
> And where is Christianity finding new priests today?
> In the Third World,
> of
> course! And India, because of the innate impulsion
> of its people towards
>
> god, is a very fertile recruiting ground for the
> Church, particularly in
>
> Kerala and Tamil Nadu. Hence the huge attention that
> India is getting
> from
> the United States, Australia, or England and the
> massive conversion
> drive
> going on today.
> It is sad that Indians, once converted, specially
> the priests and nuns,
> tend
> to turn against their own country and help in the
> conversion drive.
> There
> are very few "White" missionaries left in India and
> most of the
> conversions
> are done today by Indian priests.
> Last month, during the bishops's conference in
> Bangalore, it was
> restated by
> bishops and priests from all over India that
> conversion is the FIRST
> priority of the Church here. But are the priests and
> bishops aware that
> they
> would never find in any Western country the same
> freedom to convert that
>
> they take for granted in India? Do they know that in
> China they would be
>
> expelled, if not put into jail? Do they realise that
> they have been
> honoured
> guests in this country for nearly two thousand years
> and that they are
> betraying those that gave them peace and freedom?
> Hinduism, the religion of tolerance, the coming
> spirituality of this new
>
> millennium, has survived the unspeakable barbarism
> of wave after wave of
>
> Muslim invasions, the insidious onslaught of Western
> colonialism which
> has
> killed the spirit of so may Third World countries
> and the soul-stifling
> assault of Nehruvianism. But will it survive the
> present Christian
> offensive?
> Many Hindu religious leaders feel Christianity is a
> real threat today,
> as in
> numerous ways it is similar to Hinduism, from which
> Christ borrowed so
> many
> concepts (see Sri Siri Ravi Shankar's book: Hinduism
> and Christianity).
> It is thus necessary that Indians themselves become
> more aware of the
> danger
> their culture and unique civilisation is facing at
> the hands of
> missionaries
> sponsored by foreign money. It is also necessary
> that they stop
> listening to
> the Marxist-influenced English newspapers's defence
> of the right of
> Christian missionaries to convert innocent Hindus.
> Conversion belongs to the times of colonialism. We
> have entered in the
> era
> of Unity, of coming together, of tolerance and
> accepting each other as
> we
> are -- not of converting in the name of one elusive
> "true" god.
> When Christianity accepts the right of other people
> to follow their own
> beliefs and creeds, then only will Jesus Christ's
> spirit truly radiate
> in
> the world.
> The author, who writes 'The Ferengi's Column' in The
> Indian Express, is
> the
> correspondent in South Asia for Le Figaro, France's
> largest circulating
> daily. He has just published Arise O
> India(Har-Anand).
>
>
>
>
>
>
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=====
VENKAT KESARAJU
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Phone: 732-796-7264 (H)
       201-804-7231(W)
E-mail:kevenkat@yahoo.com,kevenkat@hotmail.com
       vkesaraju@axc.com

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